David Ross Comment on Self-Defense

[HumbleWCGuy]

Originally Posted by Frost

yep my MMA coach is a student and friend of geoff thompson and the coach at the other gym i train at does security for a few people so we have trained the fence, done some self defence and 2 on 1, 3 on 1, its a small part of our training but it is done on occasion. personally in a mulitpul situation if i cant blast a hole i want a shield (and its back to standing
grappling for me!)

That sort of training isn't really the norm. it is pretty hit and miss at an mma IMO.

Originally Posted by Frost

do people really train finger strikes to the eyes,? not being funny but the risk reward to me is too great, if you hit bone or miss and break your fingers then what?

All the time. JKDers love it. I have never seen any one get hurt.

Originally Posted by Frost

For self defence if you want something more serious than the normal fist id go with the PE fist, harder less prone to injury and can still be used to attack the eyes etc

I don't know what a PE fist is, But I don't think that the idea is to have some thing "more serious" as much as it is to make extra sure that people are hitting correctly and using palm strikes when necessary.

Originally Posted by Frost

MMA guys use the enviroment all the time in the cage or the ring, its not too much of an extension for them to use the wall, table floor etx and doesnt take too much time out of normal training to practise

Sure but the ring is only one environment with a different set of rules than the street so you have to explore other environments with a different mindset.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy

That sort of training isn't really the norm. it is pretty hit and miss at an mma IMO. .

Probably so but alot of MMA guys also bounce and have an understanding about street fighting even if they dont get it from class....what they do develop is (if they stick around or compete) is a will to destroy the other guy and a set of skills that enable them to do this...is it the best way to train for the street probably not but it allows you to develop skills that you can use under pressure and which you know will put the other guy down

Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy

All the time. JKDers love it. I have never seen any one get hurt. .

But do they spar and actually use it at full speed and full intent? i have had my finers dislocted a few times and wouldnt like to hit anything hard with them, the eyes are too small a target and too easy to miss (just my opinion)

Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy

I don't know what a PE fist is, But I don't think that the idea is to have some thing "more serious" as much as it is to make extra sure that people are hitting correctly and using palm strikes when necessary. .

Pheonix eye fist, seen in bak mei, SPM and other Hakka arts, Ronin put up a video of in in the southern forum .....you dont think finger strikes to the eyes are more deadly than punches?

Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy

Sure but the ring is only one environment with a different set of rules than the street so you have to explore other environments with a different mindset.

I dont actually think the rules/enviroment matter that much, i think its the ability and willingness to win and do bodily harm that really matters.

Scariest thing i ever saw was a bunch of rugby players destroying some bouncers in a fight (some of the bouncers were left crippled for life) the rugby lads had had no formal training but were used to contact, had mean streaks and were used to doing what ever it takes to win

[RenDaHai]

An old Chinese man once told me that during the Japanese occupation of China he was just 8 years old. At 8 years old he killed a japanese soldier by dropping a rock on his head.

The point of me saying this is that will power is the real issue here. If you will to do something it can be done. So I don't think the style of combat is really important, it is your mental ability to cope with the situation.

Since mma puts you in a difficult situation of competition with real pain, I think it is a good method of preparing the mind for actual combat. In the end you will probably never use the exact techniques you've trained anyway, you'll just improvise.

So Techniques in mma may be competition based rather than reality, but the mental training is probably more effective than most Ma.

[RenDaHai]

Originally Posted by Frost

I dont actually think the rules/enviroment matter that much, i think its the ability and willingness to win and do bodily harm that really matters.

Scariest thing i ever saw was a bunch of rugby players destroying some bouncers in a fight (some of the bouncers were left crippled for life) the rugby lads had had no formal training but were used to contact, had mean streaks and were used to doing what ever it takes to win

Hit the nail on the head. Agreed.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by RenDaHai

An old Chinese man once told me that during the Japanese occupation of China he was just 8 years old. At 8 years old he killed a japanese soldier by dropping a rock on his head.

The point of me saying this is that will power is the real issue here. If you will to do something it can be done. So I don't think the style of combat is really important, it is your mental ability to cope with the situation.

Since mma puts you in a difficult situation of competition with real pain, I think it is a good method of preparing the mind for actual combat. In the end you will probably never use the exact techniques you've trained anyway, you'll just improvise.

So Techniques in mma may be competition based rather than reality, but the mental training is probably more effective than most Ma.

ditto i agree and think we wrote the same thing from different perspectives

[doug maverick]

i remember me and my friends, would just draw a circle in the backyard and slug it out for two minutes no interruption(if you ever done a two minute round you no how exhausting that could be) and try to push ourselves to go beyond the standard punch and kick routines, but to use what we were being taught. best way to find out what works or doesnt work, or what needs to be adjusted. one of the things i learned from my xing yi teacher was "mutation" as he call it, how to change and adjust your technique to the situation. and learning how to combine or "Link" the various fist, like combination in boxing.just to give a little example, enemy attacks, you block using the rise motion of pi(splitting) chuan, then break his defense using the fall overturn motion followed by beng(crushing). this is just an example. but thats what i mean you have to learn to change your tactics and how to adjust your movements, everything doesnt have to be done like it is in a form or in a given application. i think standardize applications it what hurts most people and thats mostly due to the teacher, who doesnt explain to his students that this app is not set in stone.

another thing we did was something we called " the warriors field" where one individual would stand in the circle and defend his self against the rest of us for as long as he can. idea for this was to help you think under pressure in a situation where you had multiple attack. the idea wasnt to beat everybody up(considering there was about 15 of us that was an impossibility, although it did happen once, my friend tim just started hitting everyone in the nuts and we dropped like flies, and thus from then on he was known as the "sackinator") it was just to help you remember what you know in any given situation. many a blood stained night training with my friends....im surprised we all grew up so adjusted.lol

[HumbleWCGuy]

Originally Posted by Frost

Probably so but alot of MMA guys also bounce and have an understanding about street fighting even if they dont get it from class....what they do develop is (if they stick around or compete) is a will to destroy the other guy and a set of skills that enable them to do this...is it the best way to train for the street probably not but it allows you to develop skills that you can use under pressure and which you know will put the other guy down

They should get it from class is my point. Leaning that you should have been inspecting a guy for a weapon as the conflict escalates is a bad thing to learn after you have been stabbed several times.

Originally Posted by Frost

But do they spar and actually use it at full speed and full intent? i have had my finers dislocted a few times and wouldnt like to hit anything hard with them, the eyes are too small a target and too easy to miss (just my opinion)

They use face shields. If you hold you bil jee correctly you won't hurt your hand. the correct way to hold a bil jee is so that the fingers curl down slightly so that they collapse into a fist if they hit anything too solid. Some prefer a modified tiger claw as well.


If you land a solid bill jee on a face shield it really upsets the person being hit because of the added reach that the bil jee brings along with the face shield. I think that it actually balances out and gives a decently real appraisal of how to use the bil jee in a real situation.

Originally Posted by Frost

Pheonix eye fist, seen in bak mei, SPM and other Hakka arts, Ronin put up a video of in in the southern forum .....you dont think finger strikes to the eyes are more deadly than punches?

I didn't understand your abbreviation. Of course I believe that small hand techniques work, hence the talk of the Bil Jee. It just wasn't the focus the specific point that I was making. In that piece of text that you initially responded to, I was mostly discussing doing things to avoid hurting one's self like not hitting with the second knuckles which is a bad habit that

Could you direct me to SJ's video?

Originally Posted by Frost

I dont actually think the rules/enviroment matter that much, i think its the ability and willingness to win and do bodily harm that really matters.

On some level I agree, but all things being equal having an understanding of your environment and the dynamics of street fighting give one an edge.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that the thing that everyone needs to get away from thinking is that this is a conversation about mma versus TMA. This is a criticism of mma in a vacuum.

If we were to sit around and think about things that mma could do better, I find it hard to argue that they/we could do a better job of making sure that people can handle street situations more efficiently.

[TenTigers]

when we do an eye strike, the fingers are slightly bent, not locked out, so there is no danger if you hit bone. You don't need to be able to thrust through boards or watermelons to squish an eyeball.

[bawang]

Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy

The criticism is that it can require a heavier energy expenditure than necessary to achieve the goal.

not if u perk juggernaut and get 50% more energy. altho stopping power negates it. and always carry energy packs wit u. dont rely on random powerups
some prefer stim paks but the downside is u lose 10 hp so always bring a healer

but i argue that to neither perchance to the comsumption of leafy green vegetables which therefore increases the effeciency and energy output of your emdoplasmic reticulum and ribosomes, encouraging ribosome biogenesis. prostate anus balls

[Dragonzbane76]

stack stam. and intellect for max. boost. I have a sword with +15 to F'U-up so if we need that I can provide.

[bawang]

cast nanoskill buff to execute nanoprogram: bong sao expertise. target has drastically improved bong sao, which can be used to stop takedowns and deadly hook punches.

tier 1 perk bong sao mastery: ground fighting no longer has any effect on you.

[TenTigers]

Originally Posted by bawang

not if u perk juggernaut and get 50% more energy. altho stopping power negates it. and always carry energy packs wit u. dont rely on random powerups
some prefer stim paks but the downside is u lose 10 hp so always bring a healer

but i argue that to neither perchance to the comsumption of leafy green vegetables which therefore increases the effeciency and energy output of your emdoplasmic reticulum and ribosomes, encouraging ribosome biogenesis. prostate anus balls

sometimes I don't understand a thing he is saying.
But I think I got the last part....

[David Jamieson]

Originally Posted by bawang

cast nanoskill buff to execute nanoprogram: bong sao expertise. target has drastically improved bong sao, which can be used to stop takedowns and deadly hook punches.

tier 1 perk bong sao mastery: ground fighting no longer has any effect on you.

bong sao has no effect on bearded hook step, so the entire art is negated by a single takedown.

bad news!

[Frost]

Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy

I think that the thing that everyone needs to get away from thinking is that this is a conversation about mma versus TMA. This is a criticism of mma in a vacuum.

If we were to sit around and think about things that mma could do better, I find it hard to argue that they/we could do a better job of making sure that people can handle street situations more efficiently.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...ad.php?t=57757

link to ronins thread on PE fist.

I think the main problem with this is that most people who train MMA arent doing it primarily for self defence reasons, and those that are DO do the necessary training to make it effective on the street (they role with knifes, train against multipul opponents etc) but the vaste majority arent that interested in self defence.